What’s Inside a RED Mini-Mag? The Controversy & Jarred Land’s Statement

July 11th, 2019
What's Inside a RED Mini-Mag? The Controversy & Jarred Land's Statement

Did you know what kind of hardware rests inside of your RED Mini-Mag? Jinni Tech published a Youtube video of stripping down a RED Mini-Mag and revealing its contents. They claim that RED is only using generic OTS (off-the-shelf) hardware, and they accuse them of lying about the capacity and other attributes of their Mini-Mags. According to Jinni Tech RED is selling their media way over their real price.

We reached out to RED Digital Cinema’s CEO Jarred Land and asked for a statement, and he sent us a lengthy response, which you can read at the bottom of this article. Jarred is explaining the background of the accusations from their point of view, explains the price of RED Mini-Mags and reacts to accusations in the video. Jarred also told us that in reaction to the JinniMag situation, RED will be updating price of their media next week.

480GB SSD inside 512GB RED Mini Mag. Source: RED Filmmaker (c5D knows the identity)

RED Mini-Mag Pricing

If you have ever been shooting on RED, you probably thought to yourself that the RED Mini-Mags are quite expensive. RED knows their media is expensive and they explain it with much higher quality and reliability of their mags. RED CEO Jarred Land said they have developed their own IP and invested milions of dollars into testing, certifying, and quality checking each of their RED Mini-Mags. RED cameras are also programmed to only work with original RED Mini-Mags.

Jinni Tech vs. RED

Jinni Tech is a UK-based company which has been selling so-called JinniMags – third party media for RED cameras. The company offers 240GB, 480GB, 960GB and 1TB JinniMags in their online shop, which have the form factor of RED Mini-Mags. They also offer Mini-to-full-size Mag adaptor for use with older RED cameras. Price-wise JinniMags are less then one third of the price of original RED Mini-Mags. For instance 960GB JinniMag retails for £800 (including VAT) and 960GB RED Mini-Mag for £2,300 (excluding VAT).

RED is obviously not very happy about another company manufacturing and selling media for their cameras, as they are loosing profit by not selling more Mini-Mags. Jarred Land has been actively defending original RED media against JINNIMAGS on Reduser for a long time. He claims that Jinni Tech hacked and stole RED’s IP and firmware only to make profit without the R&D.

The Jinni Tech Claim: Consumer SSDs and no RED firmware in RED Mini-Mags

As a response to RED’s claim, a couple of days ago, Jinni Tech uploaded this Youtube video, in which they disassembled a 512GB RED Mini-Mag. They found out that RED is using a simple passthrough adaptor, which costs around $6 US, and a standard off-the-shelf Micron/Crucial SSD (which retails at around $250 US).

RED Mini-Mag “Made in USA” with an SSD from Singapore

The SSD is manufactured by Micron in Singapore and not in USA, yet RED writes “Made in USA” on their case. In this case, it might be enough to assemble the Mini-Mag in the USA in order to be able to use the “Made in USA” seal on it. This is also what Jarred later claimed in reaction to the video.

480GB SSD inside 512GB RED Mini Mag. Source: RED Filmmaker (c5D knows the identity)

480GB SSD inside a 512GB RED Mini-Mag

Furthermore, the SSD in the 512GB Mini-Mag only has a 480GB capacity, and it says so on Micron’s label which is still attached to the SSD component inside every RED Mini-Mag. RED actually changed the labeling from 512GB to 480GB in newer models of their mags.

My colleague Nino Leitner reached out to Jarred Land to explain this discrepancy, here’s his reply:

Hey Nino,  that whole 512gb/480gb thing is a general hard drive industry thing.   Almost everyone originally sold and advertised SSDs/Hard drives/Memory Cards with the total amount of space, and then gradually everyone shifted to “usable” space after formatting and adding over provisioning,  specially with SSD’s to prevent overwear.   a 480gb card that has provisioning is still indeed at it’s base a 512gb card at chip level.

Kingston explains this here 

480GB SSD inside 512GB RED Mini Mag. Source: RED Filmmaker (c5D knows the identity)

Does RED use proprietary algorithms to write on Mini-Mags or not?

As seen in the disassembly video, the serial number of the SSD shows that it is only a standard off-the-shelf product with no proprietary RED software. RED, however, claims they ARE using their proprietary algorithms to write to the RED Mini-Mags, but they are encoded in their cameras (more on this further down in Jarred Land’s reply).

480GB SSD inside 512GB RED Mini Mag. Source: RED Filmmaker (c5D knows the identity)

In order for JinniMags to work, the firmware needs to be updated to “make the RED camera think those are original RED mini mags”. That is also explained in the video. It looks like Jinni Tech is planning to publish more videos on this topic in the future.

Trying to verify some of the video’s claims

We reached out to some colleagues and friends who own RED Mini-Mags with 512GB capacity and asked them to disassemble them for us to check what’s inside, simply to verify what’s claimed in Jinni Tech’s video. Hours later, we received a number photos from two filmmakers who disassembled their 512GB RED Mini-Mags. There were indeed 480GB SSDs in both of them. (These are the photos in this article). Both filmmakers who provided the photos wish to remain anonymous, but cinema5D knows their identity. Upon request we also blurred the serial numbers on the outside casing of their RED Mini-Mags.

480GB SSD inside 512GB RED Mini Mag. Source: RED Filmmaker (c5D knows the identity)

We reached out directly to RED Digital Cinema’s CEO Jarred Land to get his official response to the subject. Here is his reply in full (unedited) length:

RED CEO Jarred Land’s email reply to cinema5D:

Nino and team,

Thank you for reaching out to RED and inviting us to respond to the allegations of Bruce Royce, the owner of JinniMag.

This video was made by Bruce, who admits that he reverse engineered the RED Mini-Mag. He did not come to discuss with RED through our third party approval process, but instead he started developing his own product to spoof the RED Mini-Mag. In the summer of 2016, he created an account on RED’s website and downloaded the RED Firmware for development purposes. In August 2016, a user named  RichardR (Bruce Richard Royce admitted in his deposition that he sometimes uses his middle name “Richard” to fool people into believing there were more employees at JinniMag)  was on message boards asking for help with false pretenses to learn how to do exactly what was demonstrated in the YouTube video you sent over.

Mr. Royce then announced the release of his JinniMag device in July 2017. Several people made comments on RedUser, and I responded expressing my personal opinion. He was not pleased with my response, and comments made by other third parties.  Mr. Royce filed a lawsuit against RED and myself first. After that, we sued them for patent infringement, trademark infringement and a host of other things here in California. During the process we had an expert that testified that they infringe. He had no response to that.  And just when we were a couple months from trial, his last group of attorneys quit on him. This was the 3rd group of attorneys to quit on him.

So, we looked at the fact Mr. Royce has no money to pay us when we win at trial, and the fact we would have to incur 10x more in legal fees than we could obtain in damages, we decided to dismiss the case “without prejudice.”  This means that RED can sue him again if he resumes building infringing product.

The judge’s notes were conveniently cropped and left out of Jinni’s statement on the matter,  I have attached the Judges order in full if you want to see what the Court actually noted.

Next, let me respond to the specific allegations in his video.

Jinni’s argument that RED has not developed its own IP and firmware is preposterous. RED built and ecosystem of IP around its REDCODE technology. This ranges from the sensors to cameras to software, and includes the recording media. All aspects of the RECODE ecosystem are patented.

Jinni next takes issue with the fact that I stated that our cameras write differently to our Mini-Mags than normal SSDs are used to. This is 100% true. Not all SSD can handle the REDCODE workflow. We have tested over 100 SSD and media components over the years, and most do not have the sustained performance to pass our criteria. For example, some Micron SSDs meet our benchmark and others do not. As a prime example, the first products that JinniMag put out were tested by RED and found to fail. When we opened it up it was using an SSD we knew to cause failures and when we tested the Jinnimag card, it indeed did fail after filling past 60% of capacity. We would never use such media because if media fails on a shoot, our users all suffer. That’s why we have high testing standards.

There is also a bizarre accusation that people think we actually claimed to make the memory chips ourselves.. which never has been claimed. RED Mini-Mag housings are easily opened and as many have done in the past (mostly out of curiosity) they have opened them to peek inside. We leave the manufacture name and model number on the SSD’s in plain sight because we are not trying to hide anything.

But since the Jinnimag card was spoofed into thinking it was a RED card, and even worse the units we received had not just different media but errors in the spoof code, this could have disastrous impacts to our customers.  Even well after the shoot was over and problematic footage was copied off the cards onto the editors hard drives with no indication that this came from an Jinnimag card.   If there were errors found it would be impossible to troubleshoot and of course we would unfairly shoulder the liability,  and even worse the customer would be stuck in the middle. You can understand how serious of an issue this could be.

Yes, we do have significantly less card errors than other companies that allow the use of generic media.  Not all media is created equal. That does not guarantee no errors ever. But, we have support in place to assist if there are card errors.

RED does not market and advertise the Mini-Mags as Made in the USA. Mr. Royce is confused in his understanding of legal requirements when RED designates a product as “Made in the USA” for country of origin purposes. RED placed this country of origin designation on its products. It is legally required to do so. That indicates the place of transformation into the final product. This does not mean or require that every component have been physically made in the USA, but tells a customer where the substantial transformation to arrive at the final product occurs.

As for the media designation, RED previously had 512GB Mini-Mags and then converted to 480GB drives. The 512GB reference had always been a industry-conforming reference to the larger drive space, some of which was partitioned for other functions and the usable space has been lower. But, the cameras themselves do not misrepresent what the media are. This is another area where Mr. Royce is incorrect. Our media incorporate unique identifier strings that verify the products as approved media and tell the camera how to record to them. If media is not approved/authenticated, then the camera reduces the record speed to protect the media. Mr. Royce found that his JinniMags would not work in the RED cameras until he found and copied this identifying string within the RED Mini-Mags. When he copied and applied that to his devices, then his devices spoofed RED Mini-Mags and told the camera that they were “RED Mini-Mag” when they were not in fact so. You will see that even in his video, he takes generic media and plugs it into the RED Mini-Mag adaptor, which adaptor tells the camera that the SSD is a RED Mini-Mag.

So, in the end, what we have said is true. RED does not use generic media – we do not use non-branded, lower quality media. We benchmark and qualify all media to ensure they can handle the REDCODE process. Like any product, not all the parts are sourced in the United States, but for country of origin purposes, the proper designation for RED Mini-Mag is USA.  RED has its own firmware to write to the media, and the media has its own unique identifiers to authenticate the writing from the camera firmware. And, RED does have a patent that covers the encoding and decoding of REDCODE to this media. The camera verifies the authenticity of the capacity and performance of media to ensure that users are using media that works with this workflow. RED is not opposed to 3rd party development of media. Jinni never went through that process. But, other parties can if they can verify the performance benchmarks that RED has set for its own media. Third party participation has always been part of the RED DNA.

Now onto the pricing which I think is the part that our customers care the most about.  We’ve always acknowledged that the RED Mini-Mags are expensive. We’ve spent millions on R&D around the media recording, including all the testing and support, salaries and rent and power and all other business costs as well with all the tooling, jigs, etc,  get split up and added to the raw cost of goods. Just to give you a broad stroke of the associated costs above just the raw parts of the RED Mini-Mag, here is an example of the process.. all parts of this process cost money to complete,  and that money needs to be added to the BOM cost ( raw cost of parts.)

  1. product specifications;
  2. mechanical and hardware engineering design;
  3. firmware engineering;
  4. thermal engineering;
  5. mechanical engineering;
  6. connector design;
  7. acquiring and testing components;
  8. acquiring test equipment;
  9. engineering testing;
  10. performance testing and benchmarking;
  11. test analysis;
  12. establishment of performance benchmarks;
  13. software programming;
  14. quality control testing;
  15. purchase and build commercial units;
  16. test each manufactured unit to confirm performance prior to sale.

After design, testing and verification, to manufacture the units, RED needs to make or purchase the various components and assemble the units.

Some components of the final Mini-Mag product are custom made by RED. Other components are purchased from third parties. Final assembly is done by RED at its headquarters. After assembly, each RED Mini-Mag is tested and validated for its memory read/write prior to shipment. The cost of the tools, as well as the cost of tooling for the manufacture of each Mini-Mag, represents additional incurred costs. Other costs include the costs of marketing and sales overhead associated with the products. These are quantified numbers, and Mr. Royce is just wrong in his statements and assumptions.

RED also spends hours each day at no charge doing media recovery for customers – at no charge.

That is all rolled into the price of the purchase.  That’s why our mags are the price that they are.

The silver lining ( for our customers ) is that the amortized costs of development are eventually paid down and lower prices are reflected, we have done this a few times already. And even though our next price adjustment wasn’t due till the end of the year, in light of all this drama we are going to adjust our prices ahead of schedule next week.

Who’s right, and what’s your verdict?

 

Naturally, there is also a lively discussion about the video and RED mini mags on Reduser. Some other users also disassembled their RED mags to confirm it is the same 480GB Micron SSD as in the video. The thread is getting very long and Jarred Land himself also posted few answers there.

The story continues here in our new article: RED MINI-MAG Prices Drop & Jinni Tech’s Second Video

What do you think of this video and the case? Do you use RED cameras? What is your experience with RED mini mags reliability and have you ever tried JinniMags? Let us know in the comments below.

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Derp Von Herp
Derp Von Herp
Guest
December 28th, 2019

I think what would be an amazing and practical test for you folks would be to crack open an official Red MiniMag cartridge and replace the Micron miniSATA disk with another model – Samsung/Intel/etc and see the results in a RED camera. Does it work, or fault with the so-called proprietary disk replaced, and the same plug adapter?

That would prove definitively whether there’s any actual software installed to justify their prices.

 Luis de la Cerda
Luis de la Cerda
Member
August 6th, 2019

So much for that RED “democratization” of filmmaking. I remember JJ’s speeches hating on companies like Sony, of bloated corporate beasts with payrolls the size of armies milking their customers for every cent. Promises of “obsolescence obsolete”. Empty poetry.

It was nothing more than filmmaking “timeshares”.

guest
guest
Guest
July 30th, 2019

Made in the USA is a joke, I would rather use imax or a Japanese camera.

Matt
Matt
Guest
July 29th, 2019

This isn’t just a RED thing. I own a Phantom Miro as well. Their Cineflash mags are actually a generic Samsung SSD (An 840). A 120GB cineflash from Vision is $1,320. The Samsung SSD inside it is worth maybe ~60 now.

Robert Niessner
Robert Niessner
Guest
July 22nd, 2019

RED has pulled the thread on reduser now. They are now in panic mode.

nitro2k01
Guest
July 20th, 2019

The one interesting part of Jarred’s statement and the one thing that I don’t think I’ve heard clarified in any media coverage is the following: “Mr. Royce filed a lawsuit against RED and myself first.”

Is this true, and what are the circumstances of this first lawsuit?

 Pedro Costa
Pedro Costa
Member
July 19th, 2019

hello im a red dragon DSCM user ,and i was able to record media to an crucial M500 mSATA SSD drive standard , that i bought on ebay 3 years ago , when i try this on my red Scarlet , but back than i was not able to record. you can see it on my youtube channel Pedro Miguel Costa. im uploading just now a video .
i’m a RED cameras huge fan i really love it. i understand the price of the cameras , because all study and development, but de REDMAGS are so expensive when i can record footage to a 100 us dollars mSATA drive . i’m developing a prototype bay to recive ssd to my full size redmags , as they are different from minimags, what i think is RED will release a firmware to all cameras, blacklisting all others ssd drive ,so they can control the media in cameras , lucky i have a RED DRAGON and the firmware updates stop in 2017 . i hope i do a lot of video to buy another RED , because ARRI in this matter is insanely whorst than red. Red sell a expensive SSD , bur ARRI sell anamorphic licence, high speed Licence , RAW licence, that i call it really bad, because RED give all that for free.
thanks to all my friends.

Simon Liu
Simon Liu
Member
July 17th, 2019

Wow those Micron M500 drives only have 72TB of writes in them before you invalidate the warranty. So like 122 hours of 8K footage before you reach the expected end of life for the SSD. For the $2350 you spend on the 960GB you could get a drive for your PC with more than 800x the write endurance and 11x better sequential speeds.

Tom Kraemer
Guest
July 17th, 2019

Margins are always higher on accessories. From phone cases and screen protectors to high end camera accessories and media, markups are often in the thousands of percent’s (in this industry, it’s madness).

Media is a valuable, sustained revenue source for Red. It locks users into an ecosystem, potentially turning a one time customer into a repeat.

I applaud the growing wave of camera manufacturers who support standard USB-C drives natively.

 Kim Brown
Kim Brown
Member
July 16th, 2019

People, RedUser, while a repository of some useful information, is hardly “the place to be” if you want to know specific information. It’s essentially a college dorm filled with Dorito fingered wanna-bees who mostly will never be…
As far as RED’s Mags, I can’t see what all the fluff is about.
RED developed the Mags at whatever cost, it really doesn’t matter in the end.
Someone tries to create a knockoff, outside of hoping to make money, they encounter problems exactly as you’d expect. Considering a RED Camera is essentially a computer attached to a lens, developing a product for RED wasn’t going to be as easy as our friend dreamed.
Now, since he’s (somewhat) pissed as his product isn’t working out as he wanted (meaning he’s not getting rich), he decides to go after RED by telling everyone LOOK AT WHAT I FOUND.
Insert non issue here. It’s unlikely anyone will hear his name for quite some time.
Now, that pesky pricing thing.
RED builds cameras. Said cameras are dumping data at an amazing rate. RED builds media cartridges that can support that fire hose of information to make sure all that data will look pretty in the end.
Hmm… how much to sell these bits of the Golden Fleece for?
RED, not a bunch of fools, have a guaranteed bunch of buyers, and as they are the manufacturer of RED cameras, they can charge exactly as they like.
I will GUARANTEE RED owners have spent more money on printer ink and batteries than they have on RED media. $29 printer, $80 ink, sounds a bit low actually, but you get the idea.
RED… is in the business of selling product, and making profit. No profit, no RED.
Their cameras do some amazing work, can’t argue about that, and considering the wide variety of work from 100% amateur to Hollywood, they better make sure their media works, as close to 100% of the time as possible. Are filmmakers actually going to trust media from a knockoff seller for their work, or, are they going to want to stick with Name Brand Original? Still photographers who want to make sure they still have their pictures when they plug in the card pay premium, so, I’ll buy RED to plug into RED.
An entire non issue started by a guy with a chip on his shoulder, who thought he’d hit the mother load, he’ll “shame” RED into… umm… huh, absolutely nothing.
Jared has shown much more patience in this whole nothing that it deserves. He’s got nothing to apologize or explain for really, it’s called doing business. Get yourself a “film” camera, and work out how much 1000 feet of your favourite costs for a one time, all in shoot, now multiply that number into the length of your film.
RED cameras have evolved into “occasionally finicky”, but wonderful cameras. If you don’t like the cost of media, change cameras and best of luck too you, try to get what RED does for a better price.
Jared, I’d love to read that first draft you wrote, the one with the good stuff in it…

Member
July 18th, 2019
Reply to  Kim Brown

I guess the whole story just passed right over your head… Name brand original? aka crucial or virtium (what is in RED mags)… I wouldn’t even trust those in my computer. No wonder RED offers data recovery services with their minimags (RED flag). I wouldn’t complain if they used high quality SSDs that actually had some proprietary firmware, but in the end, all RED is doing is taking an off-the-shelf SATA SSD (cheap ones at that) and coding an identifier in to the default firmware. Sure, they might stress test them, but anyone can really do that if they have some computer knowledge.

Jimmy Gilmore
Member
July 15th, 2019

Approved media, like that which Sony, Panasonic and Sound Devices also sell is like an insurance policy. If you’re perhaps, shooting a million dollar plus project it would be silly not to insure it. If you’re shooting a no-budget hip hop video it may be silly to purchase insurance.

Lucas Sáez
Guest
July 15th, 2019

VERY ANGRY ABOUT THAT RED Digital Cinema

Craig Wilson
Guest
July 15th, 2019

That price for storage in 2017,2018 & 2019 is ridiculously high. No one sells any storage that much. At that cost I could pay TBs of storage and build a NAS. Im happy that someone said something finally and proved that it’s just overpriced generic SSDs. He tried to do what Apple does in the cheapest and laziest way possible. Won’t be surprised if they start allowing only there drives to work in the future

sergio
sergio
Guest
July 15th, 2019

we need cinema5d to investigate this more closely. We need a documentary.

Jason Goodwin
Guest
July 14th, 2019

CEO Jarred Land makes a fair point I think. After reading his statements, I think the company should do more to explain their support services included with purchase so the users understand they are getting more than just a memory stick. I also think, to keep things fair and if users want to risk quality issues with third party media, RED should allow third party development.

David Jan
David Jan
Member
July 14th, 2019

Jakub, props to you for being the only media outlet to cover this. Now we know where all the money and influence is being peddled. News shooter was a corporate sellout from day one but I expected better from Planet 5d, 4k shooters, nofilmschool (noob as it is), DSLR video shooter, Petapixel, RedShaek news…the list goes on.

Please note this carefully for the next time you want to trust a filmmaking media outlet.

gulliverity
gulliverity
Guest
July 14th, 2019
Reply to  David Jan

EOSHD has been covering this since July 5th, FYI. (Not that I enjoy providing Andrew Reid and his scam custom LOG profiles a shout-out.)

David Jan
David Jan
Member
July 16th, 2019
Reply to  gulliverity

Sorry, must’ve missed that one. Andrew is not one to mince his words usually.

 Louis Pattinson
Louis Pattinson
Member
July 14th, 2019

He’s just posted his part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5YeX3hU6o4

This is what makes room for competitors such as kinfinity and blackmagic, that are growing through their more open systems and honest pricing. I am confused by the few that defend RED on this, like a delusional member bellow who may have deleted his comment.
He believes that if you are a real filmmaker then you do not care for things in the world such as your money or the integrity of the business you give it to. The justification being that if Arri can charge you a bull shit price on an accessory, then so can RED. And you do not have a real reason to pick another camera system unless you are not a real filmmaker and you were actually just a person all along.

This defends the cost of entry to work on the cameras that currently dominate the awards, but the cracks are showing and technology companies in all sectors are gradually losing their grip on preparatory hardware that is only ever used to lock in customers.

Craig
Craig
Guest
July 16th, 2019

Part 2 was even more brutal.

Valentin Jacobo Barthe
Guest
July 14th, 2019

I’ve always stayed away from RED. Now more than ever, I prefer a reliable workhorse that won’t shit on me mid shoot, than a full paper spec monster that works 1/2 of the time.

 Kiki Vasilescu
Kiki Vasilescu
Member
July 13th, 2019

Idiotic discussion. It seems that all those complaining about Red do anything else but films. In the cost of a film, the cost of a card, be it 1000$, is just the least thing to worry about. If you don’t like something, just ignore the bloody thing and get over it. Why do people complain about how Red prices things, if you are not a Red customer it’s simply beyond reason. A Red customer buys this camera and all the accessories in order to make films. A Red customer pays as much because wants that image quality, no mater the cost. Period. Because that image cost is just a small percentage from the overall cost. I wonder why all these that complain don’t ever address the costs associated with Arri… where a simple LCD is around 8000 bucks. Did you ever used a tripod head that costs more than a Red camera?! An Arri mate box (yes, just the bloody box) is 2000… but no one complains. Do you know why? Because those buying Arri, like those buying Red, don’t buy them just to play with them or because they are cool products: they buy them to produce something serious, like films. Those agonizing about the economics of Red should start a career in economic journalism and business ethics, and stop pretending they are film makers. A film maker cares about other things, because for a film maker the tools and money are just means used for achieving the goal: the film. So, just look in the mirror and evaluate with honesty if you are really up to being a film maker or else. Good luck in making films :-)

Member
July 18th, 2019
Reply to  Kiki Vasilescu

You don’t have to buy the ARRI addons to use the camera, in fact, there are other alternatives. That being said, a lot of ARRI addons are well designed, built, and top-speced. You HAVE to buy the minimags to use a RED – and they are nothing but the cheapest internal media you can buy. If it was RAID-1 with a raid controller, that is a different story. But it is a damn crucial ssd… a crucial ssd… I wouldn’t even trust that in my computer.

Stephen Hughes
Guest
July 13th, 2019

Red have been at the windup for far too long, about sometime someone offered cheaper alternatives than the rip off media prices they charge!

Danilo
Danilo
Guest
July 13th, 2019

I think RED has been “a little too smart”.

Anthony Bert
Anthony Bert
Guest
July 13th, 2019

“good artists borrow, great artists steal.” I guess RED is both Good and Great. Borrow someone else tech and steal your money… Well done RED!

Matthew Bennion
Matthew Bennion
Guest
July 12th, 2019

It costs BILLIONS (yes, with a B) to make a flash fab and develop the tech to make SSD’s. There are only a few flash fabs on the planet (I work for a company that has a flash fab). Why would RED make a flash fab just to make a MAG? The most prudent decision was to buy high spec SSD’s (good flash, good controller, and wrap it in a good enclosure). Making media with sustained performance isn’t easy and does take a lot of expensive engineering hours.

I read a lot of these comments and I get half of it… they are/were expensive! So are iPhones. So are other things we love from brands that know how to lure us into paying more for something (often also reinforcing our love for owning a treasured item).

The “they should make the SSD” argument is crap.

MB

Kilrah
Kilrah
Guest
July 15th, 2019

Nobody complains they aren’t making the flash nor the SSDs, but they claimed they had them customised for them, which is incorrect. And they precisely don’t take “high spec” SSDs, they always go with the supplier’s cheap option instead of paying a few bucks more for the industrial or high grade versions that would more than easily fit within the margin they make on them. That’s what they’d do if they really cared about reliability.

Member
July 18th, 2019
Reply to  Kilrah

If they REALLY cared about reliability, their mags would have a built in raid controller and a 2nd ssd running raid 1. But they obviously weighed the cost of building a robust solution against the cost of offering data recovery and determined it wasn’t worth it to offer a robust solution. RED: Buy the cheapest media we can get our hands on, slap it in a nice enclosure, and charge 8x the price so we can include “data recovery” in it.

 Jeff Newton
Jeff Newton
Member
July 12th, 2019

Nobody appears to be concerned that this JinniMag company isn’t even legally trading as their company is disolved yet they are still selling the cards. As a RED user the card cost does make my blood boil but I can’t understand why having paid £20k+ on a camera you would buy a card from a company that isn’t even legal. I understand they are cheaper but they still aren’t “cheap” if you have no come back.

 Kim Brown
Kim Brown
Member
July 17th, 2019
Reply to  Jeff Newton

You named the problem with the knockoffs. How do you trust that after a hard day of shooting, your footage is going to be happily waiting for you on the cheaper media?
If you have trouble with RED media, they’re there to help you
If you have trouble with JinniMag, either you pay big to get it recovered (if anything is there), or, after immense swearing, you “hope” you can reshoot. Either way, even though you cry at the invoice every time, you go with RED’s media.

Member
July 18th, 2019
Reply to  Kim Brown

I would argue that if you are solely relying on a single ssd (which a mini mag is essentially) for an entire day of footage than you are doing your client a disservice. RED mags are not immune to failure – no media is. Record on a redundant device (atomos, odyssey, sound devices) and then you can use an knockoff if you want, but at least you’ll have another copy. To this day, I still can’t understand why RED doesn’t have a raid-1 solution.

Francisco Falcão
Francisco Falcão
Guest
July 12th, 2019

Apple anyone?

 sam dole
sam dole
Member
July 12th, 2019

Jarred Land: “I mentioned in another post, just like last year the costs goes down (usually) as time goes on.. we lowered prices on media last year as well because of that. I am just accelerating the schedule as Phil explained because so many people seem so upset over all this which still surprises me. We can go further… that’s up to all of you, but the upcoming camera/accessory prices will need to go up as a result of it. Your choice. Those costs that I laid out in detail in my Cinema5D article are real and they don’t magically disappears”.
Exactly the kind of arrogance that pushed me to sell my Red cameras. Why do Red owners accept to be so submissive with these guys? It’s like a cult.

Michael Carmine
Michael Carmine
Guest
July 12th, 2019
Reply to  sam dole

Maybe it’s time to test their camera resolution and Dynamic range?

The Cult of Red was started when film was king. And Red did lower the cost of entry for new production. But 12 years later and now they are the dinosaurs that are inflating the profits of production equipment.

Cronkite
Cronkite
Guest
July 12th, 2019
Reply to  sam dole

What kind of statement is that anyways? Sounds like a threat: of you want lower prices here you get higher prices everywhere else. Could as well be a mob boss…

Edwin Koester
Guest
July 12th, 2019

Michael Mowen – this should be right up your alley ;)

fredrick
fredrick
Guest
July 12th, 2019

Why do you feel the need to refer to them as “so-called” JinniMags? They are called JinniMags. Would you write Canon’s so-called c300?

 Gasa Kenny
Gasa Kenny
Member
July 12th, 2019

All the people trying to defend this clear rip off and frankly illegal and miss leading tactic from this already greedy company are ridiculously blind. RED testing cards does not give them the write to charge crazy money for them because they stuck an off the shelf converter for them. Camera manufacturers tests comparable cards all the time, every camera has recommended cards and I can sure tell you my Cfast card is better than any card red is putting in their msata off the shelf mini mags.

To make it worst, red is still using these old cards that have actually been discontinued, even micron themselves reformed you use their newer m.2 cards but obviously red has been making so much money from these cards they’ve bought a bulk load of them and plan to keep selling them for the next 4 years minimum. Selling a $200 card for $2500 dollars because you apparently tested it for compatibility with your camera is ridiculous. Do you know how many devices come with recommended recording media testers by respective manufactures?

If RED charged $200 on top I’d maybe understand, but to charge $2300 Dollars is just nuts.

 Kim Brown
Kim Brown
Member
July 16th, 2019
Reply to  Gasa Kenny

You charge what the buyers will pay.
When did RED become a “break even” manufacturer who’s business plan is to offer products at little to no profit in order to keep “some” people happy?
Buy a book on business, I think that’s probably going to be your best way to understand how things like this actually work. It should also give you a good oversight on profit as well.

Robert Niessner
Robert Niessner
Guest
July 21st, 2019
Reply to  Kim Brown

Nobody is criticizing RED for trying to earn a healthy margin. But if you sell on the promise of much better quality than the average, you better do deliver better quality, not just put a hefty price tag on it.
The fixed costs do not change hugely on different module sizes, but still they increased the margins even more the larger the mag capacity.
If for example your fixed costs per module are $200 and 240GB costs $200 to buy from Micron, 480GB costs $350 and 960GB costs $600 and you add a high 100% margin, then you could sell
240GB for $800
480GB for $1100
960GB for $1600
and still make a healthy profit, and it would better reflect the true costs.

Michael Radeck
Guest
July 12th, 2019

RED verschaukelt ja von Anfang an die Welt mit einer irreführenden Auflösungsspezifikation: ein 4k Sensor hat keine 4k Bildauflösung! Ihre Prospekte der RED One haben diesen Vergleich aber gestellt… gäbe es nen Verbraucherschutz für Kameratechnik hätte es hier schon fette Abmahnungen gegeben

 Gunho Jang
Gunho Jang
Member
July 12th, 2019

I own 5 of Jinnnimag(1tb, 480g) and 5 RED mag(512g, 256g, 128g), I been using it for more than a year with three dsmc2 Gemini. its been out really hard situatuons for documentary shoot. never had any problem. both brand. it works fine with me now I know why

Fahnon Bennett
Guest
July 11th, 2019

Here’s what I posted over on Reduser, which sums up my thoughts on this:

I’m going to predict that because CFast and SSDs are so fast and reliable that proprietary media will go away for all but the most expensive camera systems, where the cost of media just isn’t a huge concern. As a customer, I’m not sold that I’m actually getting something more valuable/reliable if I buy a Redmag vs a CFast or SSD that is tested and proven to work with a specific camera model. Arri, Canon and Blackmagic all are good with using non-proprietary media and creating a list of proven cards. CFast and SSD, the underlying tech in a Redmag, is media that entire industries have been using reliably for years.

Currently, it’s $1,850 for a 480GB Redmag, when a 512GB CFast card costs $600 and a 512GB SSD costs ~$200. Now that I know that RED is simply choosing the “right” SSDs that I could go and buy myself, it seems that the huge markup is for:

-An admittedly very cool and sexy enclosure.
-A custom way to write to the drive. I’m still unclear on the benefits over what Arri/Canon/BMD are doing.
-A testing process on each drive before they go out to customers.

I’d love to see a system where those who prefer to buy a tested SSD from RED can continue to pay for Redmags, but RED or 3rd parties sell reasonably priced enclosures that someone can fill themselves with guidance from a list of recommended media. As it is now, I see this as a markup that isn’t justified to the customer.

I mean no disrespect to Jarred or anyone at RED and love RED cameras, but this is my honest assessment and I think it’s likely a common one.

I’m also happy to be corrected if anything I’ve said is factually incorrect.

 Kim Brown
Kim Brown
Member
July 16th, 2019
Reply to  Fahnon Bennett

Proprietary media will never go away. Coding is put into the camera to write data in the best, most efficient way the developer wants.
RED also recovers lost data from a miswrite on the media they sell, name a SSD or CFast manufacturer who will recover data from their drives, let alone at no cost.

 Bjørn Borud
Bjørn Borud
Member
July 16th, 2019
Reply to  Kim Brown

Are you a programmer? I am.

I spent a considerable number of years developing software for a wide range of areas. About one decade specifically spent on trying to squeeze as much performance as possible out of hard drives for applications that have to manage a few orders of magnitude more data than would be the case for a product like this. (Hey, you probably use software I wrote every time you go on the internet without knowing it). So I actually do know a bit about performance optimization in data intensive applications. Both the kind that fit in your hand and the kind that require a football field worth of equipment to run.

Which makes me interested in your statement “Coding is put into the camera to write data in the best, most efficient way the developer wants.”

While that statement may be true in itself, it does not require your underlying assumption that the code actually depends on special disk drives to be true.

Any performance gains in how one might structure storage operations would apply equally to any drive of equal or better performance. (With the note that for better drives, one may be able to utilize any speed advantage to increase robustness). Since the main task here is sequential writing of large volumes of data things like caches etc do not come into play. If you actually do know anything about designing IO-intensive software you of course already know this.

The Mini-mags demonstrably contain off the shelf consumer SSD drives. They were nothing spectacular. If you upgraded your laptop, chances are you would probably go for higher spec drives than the ones RED chose.

The electrical path between SSD and camera is a SATA path. The onboard firmware in the SSD drives was generic firmware from the vendor. Jinni Tech showed a demo involving two different firmware versions – both supplied by the SSD vendor. Bot worked. So, assuming they did not falsify this, it tells us that RED indeed does not provide any firmware aboard the Mini-Mags.

(Now, of course, these tests should be repeated to verify Jinni Tech’s claim, as you would have to do in any form of research in order to establish verifiable fact. But I have a feeling Jinni Tech have no interest in making claims that are trivial to refute independently.)

As the entire path from the mini-mag, including the on-camera adapter is purely pass-through, it proves that any “magic” does not take place inside the Mini-mag, or even the external adapter, but has to be in the camera.

Given that RED appear to have played fast and loose with the truth when marketing mini-mags this undermines their credibility as to whether they actually do anything very remarkable in the onboard software in the camera.

It also makes me question of much R&D actually went into this. For instance, if they ran more redundant fault-tolerant filesystems on those SSDs I think they would have bragged about it. Because doing that at high sustained write speeds would have been a bit spectacular on a single drive. But they don’t. Which suggests to me that they really aren’t doing anything awfully special.

If you buy into the special disks notion and that developers specifically write software for a particular set of consumer grade SSD drives (rather than going for better drives) to get better performance and robustness, you are being extremely gullible.

But hey, RED are within their full rights to sell cheap drives at a premium and you are within your full right to overpay for them. It’s your money.

Robert Niessner
Robert Niessner
Guest
July 20th, 2019
Reply to  Kim Brown

Angelbird does offer data recovery for their media for free.

Dan Brockett
Dan Brockett
Guest
July 11th, 2019

Regardless of the outcome of this, this is easily termed a PR-disaster for RED. As someone who has done PR and media training for executives, this whole debacle is a textbook case in how NOT to handle it. I can guarantee you that Jarred’s statement was vetted and possibly co-written with counsel but it’s a case of too much info, too late. RED can make and charge whatever the market will bear for their products. As far as the nitty-gritty of how said products are made, that’s the rub. The whole 480GB vs. 512GB thing seems like none issue to me, mostly a terminology issue for those who don’t understand the finest points of that technology, but once again, the way RED handled it is a textbook PR nightmare.

It will be interesting to see what this does to RED’s image, sales and perception withing the very small community of users for their products. That’s the thing, RED cameras have always and probably will always only appeal to a very delect subset of an already small group from a sales perspective. Mostly high end DPs and Directors who can easily jump ship and shoot with half a dozen other competing products because they mostly don’t buy and own the products, they rent them.

The group of RED owner/operators is also pretty small worldwide, perhaps a few thousand? Hopefully from here on out, RED will implement a public policy of FULL transparency about everything they put out, cameras, media, accessories. I think they can still pull it out and survive as their cameras are good and have an enviable track record as far as high profile projects. But once the public and their customers get a whiff of being lied to or misled in the name of profit, RED could go under rather quickly as they are not a diversified company like much of their competition is. They make high end production cameras and that’s pretty much it.

Robert Niessner
Robert Niessner
Guest
July 11th, 2019
Reply to  Dan Brockett

Dan, I don’t think it is a PR disaster for RED, here is why:
RED started in 2007 as an “underdog, taking it up with the big guys”. They slowly built a very loyal group of first potential and later real customers. The RED ONE was indeed quite affordable and had no contenders in its price range. The CEO Jim Jannard participated often in discussions on reduser which provided customers with even more feeling of membership to an inner circle. RED stood behind their products and tried to offer great customer support.
With new products they started to raise the initial prices for more profit, offered more and more supplementary products with even higher margins. All in all the prices where still worth it for their customer base, where many had themselves a growing business because they bought into the RED ecosystem very early. But buying into that ever raising ecosystem means also you can’t leave it that easy any more. Customers got emotionally and financially tied to RED over the years. When something becomes part of your believe system you grow a thick shield preventing you from seeing things not fitting into the ideal illusion. Even hard facts can’t convince you anymore that there is something wrong – it just thickens the shielding.

My conclusion: it doesn’t matter for their hard core customer base (just read what they are writing at reduser about this case), they will find excuses for themselves why it is ok.
For none customers it doesn’t matter, because they won’t buy into the RED ecosystem anyway. And for producers it doesn’t matter, because they rent stuff. They only care about reliability to avoid expensive reshootings.

 Bjørn Borud
Bjørn Borud
Member
July 16th, 2019

I think you are probably right. Not least because most of the claims that get thrown around are things that aren’t really within the domain of expertise of their core fanbase.

But the question is how it affects their image. The underdog advantage relies on one emotional component that is critical: a sense of moral superiority. And when people catch onto RED taking advantage of their fans and customers, the nature of those emotions might change into something nasty.

What I don’t get is why RED would risk this.

Why would they use misleading marketing? They didn’t have to. Why would they even put screws on the devices so they are easy to open and analyze for anyone who owns a screwdriver and has rudimentary knowledge of how computers and electronics works? Why would they risk having their CEO make random public claims without vetting them first?

They did nothing wrong in selling overpriced storage. But then they just fucked up completely unnecessarily.

Robert Niessner
Robert Niessner
Guest
July 20th, 2019
Reply to  Bjørn Borud

Studies have shown that when you fell into a cultist like fellowship, you are so emotional tied that your brain refuses to acknowledge facts contradicting your believe system.
This can happen to anyone of us with any product, brand, person, country, political side, religion – anything human beings are able to emotionally connect.

Luka Sanader
Luka Sanader
Guest
July 17th, 2019

this is not the question of how many GB’s we have or what is the real cost of MiniMag this the question of trust. if you get lied by someone about one thing who is guaranteeing you that you ware not lied about other things. Yes Red offered some fantastic upgrade paths that turned our dated cameras in to current models but now i dont know what was real and what not. was i sold firmware upgrade? or someones old hardware? are the electronics the same and did i pay for new aluminum box? or ….? Pandora box is opened

Guest
July 11th, 2019

He charged more than the component cost.
REALITY: No manufacturer charges component costs for finished goods.

Any company is able to charge whatever they want for their goods.
If you feel it is too much, then buy a different solution.

When things get commoditized, and available from numerous sources, then they each cut the margin of profit down to a point that it becomes hard for them to even exist and make a profit.

Even cell phones, which are seemingly commoditized, still command very healthy margins for their manufacturers. An iPhone XS is routinely torn down and the $453 worth of goods* and assembly is but a fraction of the $1249 retail price. But people still pay it because the _value_ of the finished good is perceived good by the user.

If RED mags routinely failed, or there was some other widespread quality control issue demonstrating that inferior parts or testing were failing RED users, then this would be a discussion. But that’s not the discussion here.

That RED charges more than component costs is to be expected.
That’s how businesses stay in business, and grow.
That’s how RED funds development of the next camera, the next sensor, the next solution- by reinvesting profit back into the company. And Profit comes from charging more than component cost.

* Linky Goodness: https://www.techinsights.com/blog/apple-iphone-xs-max-teardown

Fahnon Bennett
Guest
July 11th, 2019

You’re absolutely right about RED, and any other business, charging more than it costs them to make a product. What I’m reading from most folks has to do with this area of what you said: “But people still pay it because the _value_ of the finished good is perceived good by the user.”

With fast and reliable media available off-the-shelf, and other manufacturers using CFast/SSD, proprietary media that ends up being modified SSDs isn’t being perceived as a good value by the people complaining. It’s not only RED doing this, but I, like a lot of others, thought RED was manufacturing (or contracting out) a custom media solution that is both technologically superior to and not as common as a commoditized media solution like SSD.

I’m not sold that I’m actually getting something more valuable/reliable if I buy a Redmag vs a CFast or SSD that is tested and proven to work with a specific camera model.

 Bjørn Borud
Bjørn Borud
Member
July 16th, 2019

I don’t understand why Anthony Burokas’ post was downvoted. As far as I can see he didn’t state anything that was false or even that controversial.

 Kim Brown
Kim Brown
Member
July 17th, 2019
Reply to  Bjørn Borud

This discussion is heavily skewed with RED Haters.
RED Haters can be easily identified as the ones using their GoPro’s on their selfie sticks.
This post will probably get downvoted as well…
Wait for it.

Robert Niessner
Robert Niessner
Guest
July 22nd, 2019
Reply to  Kim Brown

One sign of a cult is that the members like to see themselves as superior and the non-followers as inferior. Another sign is to label any criticism as hate. And the members always play the victim card if criticized.

Member
July 11th, 2019

Jarrad writes like a lawyer { or was it written by their lawyer ? } in silver 1/2 truths, but doesn’t speak the actual truth. Subtle but Jarad says the adapter card ID’s to the camera the media is a SSD. Hmmm, did they just pull a pin in the interface high or low ? Note he doesn’t say there any firmware on the media being loaded which is RED’s. At most RED might write a media ID value into the SSD, but that hardly qualifies as IP. Guess Jarad should read the Atari cartridge lawsuit about whats allowable.

RED got caught ripping off their users big time. Its not that we don’t expect companies to make a profit, but a 10X total screw over ? oh, guess you guys don’t want to know what the retail markup in clothing is.. its about the same.

As for dropping the lawsuit, RED could of settled with a cease and desist settlement. While probably true there was no money to collect, what RED really didn’t want as public record is whats in that video – there is nothing special about their media. RED didn’t want to loose their own lawsuit, pay damages / fees, and have the PR disaster they bought for themselves anyway.

Of course if their media was such high quality why do they need to offer free data recovery ? talk about spewing BS about how great their product is.

Of course their cameras have never been particularly reliable either in actual production although they have gotten a lot better over the years. Even still you want another body on a large production just in case which I can’t say about any other camera.

Hey Now
Hey Now
Guest
July 12th, 2019
Reply to  Steve Oakley

“RED could of settled”

What is “could of” supposed to mean?

Ben J
Ben J
Member
July 12th, 2019
Reply to  Hey Now

I’m sure you know what it’s supposed to mean. And so, I imagine, do most people reading, who have probably learned to glide over small errors and focus on what’s being said. If these things really are irritating for you, probably best not to read any open comments online.

Lâm Tran
Guest
July 11th, 2019

The biggest mistake that the JinnMag guy made was dived into the legal aspect of the issue. Had he just stuck with the technical side, Jarred Land’s last response would not have exist.

Lâm Tran
Guest
July 11th, 2019

The biggest mistake that RED made was making their cameras affordable to “many people”. Those “many people” are a big potentials to be trolls that will create havoc on the RED community. RED should’ve kept the prices high to protect the elitists.

David Jan
David Jan
Member
July 12th, 2019
Reply to  Lâm Tran

Indeed Sire, blame those poor classless hard working professionals who don’t want to hand over bags of money for shit sprinkled in gold packaging. Queen Land is practically giving it away for free to you, you ungrateful twats.

Jack O'Gara
Guest
July 11th, 2019

lol the RedUser forum is such a collective of circle jerks.

Welp, OK
Welp, OK
Guest
July 12th, 2019
Reply to  Jack O'Gara

It is truly embarrassing. And the fact that Red used it as its main communication medium, when Red didn’t even own it, compounded Red’s unprofessional aura.

Red would post firmware and software updates in arbitrary threads on this third-party forum and NOT on its own Web site; you’d have to hunt through screen after screen of pitiful, sycophantic sniveling to find it weeks later.

 sam dole
sam dole
Member
July 12th, 2019
Reply to  Jack O'Gara

We can make a book about this forum. It’s the same guys there for 10 years. There are the watchdogs who are defending Red tooth and nail. And the others who are timidly trying to complain whenever Red decides to halve the price of their camera suddenly or when they sell an overpriced media card for no reason. Same circle always: Red fanboys buy a Red product, everything changes (because obsolescence obsolete of course), they complain, Red guys and watchdogs bark at them, they shut up and pay for the new upgrade, and so on.

 Kim Brown
Kim Brown
Member
July 16th, 2019
Reply to  sam dole

I’m not following your argument, they defend RED, absolutely, what were you expecting on a RED forum. Go to a Sony forum, tell me its any different…

 Kim Brown
Kim Brown
Member
July 16th, 2019
Reply to  Jack O'Gara

You do realize, anonymous comments are meaningless, right?

Ballard Johnson
Guest
July 11th, 2019

They’re not being sold over their “real” price. The “real” price is what RED sells them for. There aren’t two prices on products, “real” and not “real.” Do they selll at a price higher than what it costs to make the product? Get ready for this answer…it may shock you. YES. Welcome to Capitalism, children.

Fahnon Bennett
Guest
July 11th, 2019

You’ve missed the point, and were smug and condescending while doing it.

Capitalism accepts profit margins, sure, but also affords customers the option of being unhappy with, complaining about and consequently not buying a product. So you’re right that the “real” price is what they’re sold for, people should absolutely complain loudly if they feel that price isn’t worth it, for whatever reason.

RED is lowering prices over this. I’m sure they wish they could continue selling at their higher margins, but people complaining let them know people were unhappy and gave them a chance to change course.

That is also capitalism.

 Kim Brown
Kim Brown
Member
July 16th, 2019
Reply to  Fahnon Bennett

I would say that every RED owner of RED mags have been able to unscrew and take a gander at what’s inside any time they like, but the problem is, that 90% plus of the commenters here have never held a RED, let alone owned one, so for them their argument is unimportant.

 Dominic DeSantis
Dominic DeSantis
Member
July 11th, 2019

There is a lot to digest here. Much of it business practices of both RED and Jinni Tech. Aside from that: Whats to keep RED owners from taking there 480 mags and replacing the SSD with a 960? One can test a Micron SSD with a computer and get a read/write rating. If it passes muster should be viable.

Christopher Hunter
Christopher Hunter
Guest
July 11th, 2019

No because:

“Our media incorporate unique identifier strings that verify the products as approved media and tell the camera how to record to them.”

Hmmm
Hmmm
Guest
July 12th, 2019

From the sound of it, those strings are delivered by the controller in the enclosure, not the drive. The drive is subject for formatting, which would (presumably) overwrite any such string.

Christopher Hunter
Christopher Hunter
Guest
July 11th, 2019

If your generic media does not have those unique ID strings, the camera won’t allow it to record.

Dubbwazz
Dubbwazz
Guest
July 12th, 2019

It will Record but it forces it to some obscene compression Ratio like 19:1

Christian Schmeer
Guest
July 11th, 2019

The over-provisioning argument is total bs… these drives have 447GB usable. They’re 480GB drives. Not 512GB in any shape or form.

 Daniel Rozsnyo
Daniel Rozsnyo
Member
July 12th, 2019

447GiB = 480GB, unfortunately Windows is still using the wrong suffix. Disk formatting never consumed noticeable amount.

David Jan
David Jan
Member
July 11th, 2019

Jarred and his Barbie Jeep driving gang of pseudo Army poser bros each had a free additional new IO port (heh) installed after this video.

The justifications are moronic – no points of it make any sense. They got caught blatantly ripping people off and now they in cover up mode. You developed the system – probably, because who knows what else is shaky about this company – which is cool but spent “millions” on R&D to put a Cheap ass SSD inside a fancy case? This is American “manufacturing pride”, is it?

And OH MY GOD, nothing says SCAMMERS CAUGHT better than “we were gonna reduce the price of our scam SSDs anyways, now we’ll have to do it earlier”

Jarred, if you’re reading this with your bunch of tactical scam artists, don’t dig this hole deeper. Truth catches up. Always. As it did here.

As for RED users who got conned plain and simple, I smell a class action lawsuit. I love the smell of class action lawsuits in the morning

Robert Niessner
Robert Niessner
Guest
July 11th, 2019

There are still things to discuss, despite the long answer from Jarred Land.

He wrote:
“For our media, we developed our own IP and Firmware and spent millions of dollars testing, certifying and QC every media card that we ship. Its why we have significantly less card errors than other companies using generic media… even reputable generic media. ”

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?147759-Cheap-third-party-Red-MiniMag-replacement-JinniMag&p=1649669&viewfull=1#post1649669

And then:

“As for the price… as I said previously, yes RED MAGS are expensive. The millions of dollars of R&D around media recording, the testing , the support for issues and firmware updates etc., along with the hours of no charge media recovery we do every single day for customers needs to be paid somehow. That get’s rolled into the cards and thats why they are so expensive. And yes, that amortization does eventually get paid off slowly, and every so often we do adjust the price of the cards lower to reflect that.”

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?177083-Jinnitech-back-at-it-again&p=1860442&viewfull=1#post1860442

That leaves the question – if they have significantly less card errors than others, why do they still have to do media recovery every single day?
Why don’t we hear from Arri people that their media is failing so often (the faulty Lexar 3600 aside)?
Why can Angelbird offer free media recovery for their products too, without inflating the prices?
Statistics I’ve found only show a typical failure rate for consumer SSDs of around 0,25% per year. Much better than failure rates for HDDs. Industrial grade SSDs do have even lower failure rates.

I’ve also made (in German) an estimated calculation (before Land’s statement) of the true costs of RED MINI Mags here: https://www.slashcam.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=145931&start=70#p998918

Of course I had to make a lot of assumptions, but having a background in mechanical engineering, programming, development and business management I tried a best guess. Obviously I haven’t included costs like offices and such, but I’ve included a 1.5 Mio R&D and costs for media recovery team.
Broken down to a single media, I found those fixed costs to be around $150 per media. Even if you double R&D costs that would go up only by another $50. Of course everything depends on my guess of the amount of media they will produce in the time span of a year.

In the end, the high prices you have to pay are a kind of insurance fee to get free recovery if needed.
If my calculations are quite correct, RED will make a very, very nice profit in the end anyway.

Shakalaka94
Shakalaka94
Guest
July 16th, 2019

Honestly, if Jarred Land’s claims are true, the price might still be over-the-top, but not inherently wrong.

Aside from the R&D of your code and research for the right type of hard-drives, quality control costs way more than people think, and it’s definitely a must despite what those same people think (something you don’t seem counting in your breakdown, alongside R&D, it might be wrong).

The fact is Red, for better AND worse, choose proprietary media storage, which guarantees the end-user functionality more so than those cameras using generic media storages, but it comes with a price.

Put into account that Red products are aimed at professionals, hence sample checks (which is what’s done for consumer products, aka most Cards and SSDs used by other brands) won’t make it for these kinds of products, which means they have to check every single REDMAG before it hit shelves. That requires time, which requires money, which is going to inevitably hit the end-user.

Of course, REDMAGs are not the most requested product in the world, but I assume quality control personnel is directly proportional to the amount requested.

Am I defending Red? Kinda, though I’m explaining what they are doing, and their pricing albeit unlikeable is kind of inevitable, at the moment of course. The fact it may cost more for data recovery shouldn’t be an accusation, by the way. It’s a professional grade product, offering such a thing it’s a must.

Also, this answer of mine doesn’t consider all the legal mumbo-jumbo that inevitably plays into the matter, which is the same reason why you shouldn’t go against these companies just to gain the respect of a thousand Internet users, unless you know your shit – something the Jinn guy who spoofed the Mags didn’t know. He ain’t a martyr, he is just an idiot.

Last but not least, you don’t hear about Arri’s issues with data mostly because the media support is from a third party (albeit officially licensed), hence the fault isn’t totally theirs. But also because it’s the most beloved brand in the industry, and it’s been around for a century, which grants you a lot of political power. Issues are there too, you just don’t read about it as often. Before you accuse me of çonspiracy’ theories and whatnot, I worked at a newspaper in the past. Feeded news is a thing and unfortunately there’s no stopping that given papers and newsrooms are in desperate need of money (and that is way more valid for industry news portals who make absolutely nothing out of ads).

PS: as a simple example of quality control costs, look no further than the Nintendo Pro Controller – which same exact model is sold on AliExpress for roughly $40 less than the one sold by Nintendo. Then look at the reviews online and how hit and miss the AliExpress version is. And this is ‘just’ a very low-cost B2C product.

Redemption
Redemption
Guest
July 17th, 2019
Reply to  Shakalaka94

Thank you, Shakalaka, for your passionate contribution to intellectual disgenics, you idiot.

In this long, painstakingly vacant retort, you have only managed to reiterate the claims made by a questionable corporate entity, which I might add, is under the scrutiny of no external review board or process.

It is, occasionally, left to consumers to flag industry malpractice, and the information divolged in Jinni Tech’s video, while not completely damning, has certainly warranted further investigation as to the authenticity of RED’s products and their assertions surrounding them.

It is not enough to say, and verify, that RED use proprietary firmware/software——it must be demonstrably superior to generic/non-proprietary, in the way RED claims is so.

Robert Niessner
Robert Niessner
Guest
July 20th, 2019
Reply to  Shakalaka94

Thanks for your reply. I got an education in QC and an engineering degree which also contains knowledge of cost and workplace preparation calculation.
In my breakdown I have considered costs for 100% QC, development of QC processes have been factored into R&D costs. After the initial high costs of R&D it is just a matter of scaling up the unit numbers and selling high enough quantities – so the fixed costs per unit won’t markup a lot. For QCing SSDS: the only way I can imagine to do it without secret knowledge of the manufacturers like Micron – is to do stress tests and several full write cycles and check that for errors and failures. That’s it.

Martin Heck
Guest
July 11th, 2019

Also das er da jetzt immer noch hinschreibt “Firmware engineering” is schon resistent. Zu nem gewissen Grad hat er natürlich recht. Das so ein Teil nicht nur so viel wie die SSD selbst kosten kann ist klar. Ich würde es am liebsten mit den CineSSD von DJI vergleichen. 480gb kosten da 1000€, haben allerdings eine state of the Art m.2 SSDs drinn mit der 10fachen leistung der REDmags. Dagegen fast 2000€ für die REDmags. Finde ich immer noch eine Frechheit, gerade da sich die Entwicklungskosten (fürs reine mini-mag wohlgemerkt, die redcode raw pipeline ist sicher sehr teuer) wirklich in Grenzen halten müssten: KEINE custom firmware, nur ein pass-through adapter, CNC, machining von dem Gehäuse geht auch auf Masse (das Design gibts ja schon ewig). Das teuerste wird tatsächlich die QC sein…

 Daniel Rozsnyo
Daniel Rozsnyo
Member
July 11th, 2019

I like how a RED camera says “Media is too slow”, when I connect a 450MB/s CFAST to a RED ONE. They obviously do have a whitelist for media product names embedded in their camera software – but come on, that is not millions of dollars spent on R&D. That is a one hour work to camouflage the reality – that they want to sell you overpriced media, because customers and believers are the easiest one to rip off.

Since the media is off the shelf SSD, the only customization RED could make is to change some user-definable variables of the drive (the easiest one being the LBA sector count – to downsize the drive to a magical correct number).

The second bullshit with the over-provisioning. A 512 GB media is really storing a 476 GiB of data, yet there is at least 512GiB of usable flash cells (this “full” capacity has already +7.5% of overprovisioning). These data cells are in practice further extended with cells used for data protection codes (e.g. 16384+1872 = +11.4%), and faulty pages relocation (eg. 4196 instead of 4096 pages = +2.3%).

Had anybody tried how much data actually fits to the 512GB minimag media? Because faking a 480GB to 512GB one… seems very unfair. It only shows what RED is truly good at – bullshitting the world.

 Anthony Ojo
Anthony Ojo
Member
July 11th, 2019
Reply to  Daniel Rozsnyo

Hey guys long time listener first time caller. When i search the Part number on the SSD (P/N: MTFDDAT480MAV-1AE12ABYY) I get the Micron M500 msata. This entire thing feels like Anti-Consumer behavior similar to when Nvidia sold a 4GB card which only actually had 3.5GB and resulted in a class action lawsuit for false advertising, a lawsuit which they lost. I wouldn’t be surprised if RED got something similar down the line.

SSD Overprovisioning as explained by Linus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q15wN8JC2L4

 Kim Brown
Kim Brown
Member
July 16th, 2019
Reply to  Daniel Rozsnyo

Apparently Daniel, you and a whole bunch of people complaining are amazingly naive.
I buy a hard drive, I know my 500gb drive doesn’t have 500gb after I format it.
Most people know this fact when they buy, or just after it’s installed.
A lot of noise Daniel, about a very well known non issue.

 Bjørn Borud
Bjørn Borud
Member
July 16th, 2019
Reply to  Kim Brown

Before you call someone naive, it wouldn’t hurt to do a bit of research.

Red fanboy detector
Red fanboy detector
Guest
July 17th, 2019
Reply to  Kim Brown

Red fanboy detected!

Simon Liu
Simon Liu
Member
July 17th, 2019
Reply to  Kim Brown

Do you enjoy paying $2350 for a $100 ssd with a fancy enclosure? It has a measly 72TB of write endurance in it, you can only get 122 hours worth of 8K footage out of it before you have to start worrying about it dying. For less money you can get one of these Samsung datacenter SSDs for a PC that will last 800x longer and run more than 10x faster.
https://www.span.com/product/Samsung-PM1725b-MZPLL6T4HMLA-00005-PCI-Express-v3-x8-HHHL-SSD-6-4TB-SSD~68240

Derp Von Herp
Derp Von Herp
Guest
December 28th, 2019
Reply to  Simon Liu

Yeah, since I’m not a videographer I don’t give a shit but this is obviously a complete ripoff scam by Red.

As Simon says (lol) charging $2350 for a $100 *SATA* SSD is a scam, period. These are nearly 20 year-old technology at this point.

Nowhere in the IT industry can you perpetrate over 2000% profit unless you have a captive market. And it sounds like these lazy fucks didn’t even bother with anything more than $10 worth of hardware adapter and a pretty metal shell to make their product ‘proprietary’. The CEO is obviously running scared now that the secret is out, a corporation with actual money for lawsuits could obviously eat their lunch in a heartbeat. Western Digital, or Seagate could produce ‘RED-compatible’ drives for even $500 and destroy them utterly.

An Engineer
An Engineer
Guest
July 19th, 2019
Reply to  Kim Brown

Hi. This is not a question of formatting.

Let me explain to you how the HDD/SSD industry advertises capacity. If you buy a 500GB drive, it will provide at least 500 decimal gigabytes of storage. That is, 500 * 10^9 bytes, or 500,000,000,000. (In practice it is likely to be a bit larger than exactly 500*10^9. Not by much, usually, but the manufacturers are erring on the side of not getting sued based on consumer protection laws.)

Many computer operating systems use a different idea of what a gigabyte is when reporting capacity, the “binary” gigabyte. A binary gigabyte is 2^30 bytes, or 1,073,741,824 bytes. That’s a considerable bit more than the decimal gigabyte, 10^9, or 1,000,000,000 bytes. (A notable exception to this is macOS, which (in most places visible to ordinary users) displays disk capacities and file sizes using decimal magnitudes rather than binary.)

Nearly all of the apparent difference between the capacity on the label in the store and the capacity as reported by many (not all) computer operating systems is down to this. Divide 500 * 10^9 by 2^30 and you get about 465 binary gigabytes. Same capacity, different scale.

The remaining difference is storage space used by your operating system to track files. This is usually not all that much.

RED’s attempt to describe a 480GB SSD as a 512GB SSD is extremely shady. This is not a question of losing capacity to formatting. If you were to buy a 512GB SSD for your computer from an online retailer, you would get a device that stores 512*10^9 bytes before formatting. If you buy a 512GB SSD from RED, not only is it massively overpriced for something which is just a shell around an off-the-shelf Micron mSATA 480GB SSD, you are only getting 480*10^9 bytes of storage before formatting.

Member
July 11th, 2019

Great job guys!

Timothy Philip
Guest
July 11th, 2019

Jared is a tool, would never buy a RED anyway.

 Kim Brown
Kim Brown
Member
July 16th, 2019
Reply to  Timothy Philip

So, why are you commenting?

Jason Foster
Jason Foster
Guest
July 26th, 2019
Reply to  Kim Brown

To reaffirm that all this drama and back and fourth is stupid and a way to turn potential customers away. Pretty much confirming for myself, I’d likely avoid the drama myself and avoid RED.

Guest
July 11th, 2019

One thing I think people miss about storage solutions is a simple point about probability of disk error. Compare the following two approaches to reducing probability of failure:
1) Do what Red and others do: rigorously test ssd’s to get the ones that will have the lowest probability of error.
2) Record to two disks at the same time, but use off-the-shelf media.

Which one of these would create the lowest probability of error? Well consider this. If Off-the-Shelf SSD 1 has a failure probability of say 1/100, and Off-the-Shelf SSD 2 has the same, then the probability of them failing at the same time is 10,000. If Camera Company X rigorously screens and tests Off-the Shelf SSDs to make “mags” that are more reliable, by how much do they reduce the probability of failure? There is no way on this earth that they can get results anywhere near the redundant approach, reducing the odds from 1/100 to 1/10000. No way. Perhaps they could cut the failure rate in half or maybe more, but there is no way they would match the much simpler approach.

Now I realize reliability is not the only thing at issue here, there is also speed testing, etc. But why not just do some basic speed testing, recommend the right Off-the-Shelf SSDs, and then provide redundant recording? Wouldn’t that be better?

I could very well be missing something here, so let me know if I am.

Guest
July 11th, 2019

Correction: the probability is 1/10000, not 10000.

David Jan
David Jan
Member
July 11th, 2019

That’s all dandy, Ben, until you realize if they gave a shit about data integrity, they would stay away from some of the worst rated SSDs on the market with highest data errors – google RED data errors and the results are endless, even on circlejerk central forum.

I wouldn’t even have an issue if they’d developed their own line and charged that much for it, which is what their cult leader claimed before this shit came out.

This is like Toyota saying their cars can only run this one brand of their fuel which is $50/gallon and then someone discovers it’s nothing other than ordinary fuel in a Toyota can. Then, it’s as reliable or unreliable as anything else.

So, basically, like I said, I see class action lawsuits in the near future.

Hmmm
Hmmm
Guest
July 12th, 2019
Reply to  David Jan

“This is like Toyota saying their cars can only run this one brand of their fuel”

Car makers tried just that, decades ago. The result was the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which gives you the right to disassemble, modify, “jailbreak,” or do whatever else you want to a product you own WITHOUT fear of voiding the warranty. In the USA, it is illegal to void the warranty of a product simply because the user modified it (so yes, those stickers saying “warranty void if removed” are absolute bullshit).

The law was enacted to prevent GM (for example) from threatening to void warranties if you didn’t use “special” GM oil or tires, or from Ford saying you had to use “special” Ford air filters.

David Jan
David Jan
Member
July 12th, 2019
Reply to  Hmmm

Goddam. Mr Land learning from the best…or is it worst?

As the case should be here. Sure, I’m all for whatever proprietary stuff they’ve developed and that’s cool, they can charge whatever the cultists are okay with.

Have your “authorized and tested” media at whatever price if you do have an authorized media list and an adapter for use with third party media. But that’s too clean for the Tactical Rapid Fire Morons Unit.

This is why whoever claims RED cares for the underdog – unlike those big bad germans at Arri – can put a sock in it. At least the Germans let you use third party media which they list, test and recommend. And their color science, usability, reliability and build is decades ahead. ‘Nuff said.

 Kim Brown
Kim Brown
Member
July 16th, 2019
Reply to  David Jan

No one forces anyone to buy RED.
It’s up to the buyer to understand what they’ve chosen, including all costs.

 Bjørn Borud
Bjørn Borud
Member
July 16th, 2019

The drives RED used _are_ off the shelf SSDs. They are drives specifically manufactured for the general consumer market.

Henrique
Guest
July 11th, 2019

I like how he just admits they use off the shelf components which would invalidate his claim there’s a… https://t.co/IxrzhBPzBa

Karl Krings
Guest
July 11th, 2019

Preisanpassung klingt nach einem Schuldeingeständnis…oder?
Ich habe 20tsd bei meiner Helium verloren; über Nacht. Das Gerät war nicht mal 3 Monate alt. Mal sehen was hier passiert. Not cool! Ich bin RED user seit 2011 Jarred Land. I am still wating for compensation. Sorry. I have to say that loud!

Daniel Goldman
Guest
July 11th, 2019

The Red Cameras are truly fake, like Red mini-mags. All RED series are banned in Ocean Pictures Entertainment.

Daniel
Daniel
Guest
July 12th, 2019
Reply to  Daniel Goldman

LOL!!!! Who the hell is Ocean Pictures Entertainment????

Arri guy
Guest
July 12th, 2019
Reply to  Daniel

Run by probably sharks and occasional dolphins.

 Kim Brown
Kim Brown
Member
July 17th, 2019
Reply to  Daniel Goldman

OK I looked them up. LOL… RED must be truly terrified.
https://m.facebook.com/Ocean-Pictures-Entertainment-1490918474528552/

Member
July 18th, 2019
Reply to  Kim Brown

huge loss indeed

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